What is Libervis?
tbuitenh | I think environmentalism is | Wed, 2008-02-06 09:38
I think environmentalism is new to the libervis mix.
I suppose libervis will be most effective if it does things that are needed by those who feel attracted to it for one reason or another. But that's a circle: we come here because libervis fulfills some need. So we should ask ourselves who else we would like to see here.
libervisco | Environmentalism is new, but | Wed, 2008-02-06 11:38
Environmentalism is new, but it fits the same bigger picture that Freedomware, Free Culture and general humanist spirit does. I don't envision just yet for there to be much activity in that area, but I think it is worth stating that it is a part of the causes we are pursuing.
About attracting people to Libervis based on what they need, even as we look at it today, that could mean that they need help with Free Software so they come to Nuxified.org or they like brainstorming and philosophical/political etc. discussions so they come to Libervis.com and so on. So basically there is no single need we satisfy.
So who else would we like to see here? Hmm.. In the context of stated goals/causes, it is really anyone who has interest in those same things.
I'm thinking, so far, maybe "incubating ideas and projects" is the best way to describe our method? The thing is that specific of these projects can serve various kinds of specific needs, but the general result is propagation of the stated causes.
Edit: If I take that a bit further, I could say that the specific goal that would be set forth for Libervis is to become the most influential, sustainable and powerful online network of projects which promote socially, ethically and ecologically responsible use and development of technology. In a sense, once Libervis is "done" with the web, it and the world will never be the same again. We'd make our mark. 
Kevin Dean |
libervisco | Thu, 2008-02-07 20:07
Environmentalism is new, but it fits the same bigger picture that Freedomware, Free Culture and general humanist spirit does.
I've always cautioned you to be careful there, because I can't disagree with you more. Environmentalism is about care for the environment, and I couldn't care less about the environment, all social obligations aside.
I care about self-reliance. I would LOVE to generate my own solar power, for instance, and not be dependant on the electric companies. I'd love to have wells to not need to depends on the water company. If we found technology today to clean the environment but STILL keep me tied into those places, I would still be resisting it.
There's also the flipside of the Free Software movement. Sure, Vista is a power hog, but Vista also "forces" people to upgrade their hardware - systems that (for the past three years) have been listing "energy efficient" as part of their sales brocure. AMD and Intel chips today use less energy than their counterparts from 5 years ago. How much energy are we wasting by keeping that "legacy" equipment on the grid running Damn Small Linux?
How much energy are we wasting by writing something like Gnash, when Flash already works? How much electricity is being used to re-write code to do things that already exists?
To me, the question is irrelevant, because I want to be free from the control of other people. I can't get that by using Adobe's code and I can't get that by using "less" of the electric company's power; it needs to be a complete and total break.
I'll "waste" electricity to be free, even if the environment doesn't like it.
libervisco | Good points.
In some sense, | Thu, 2008-02-07 21:19
Good points.
In some sense, self-reliance could be seen as the right way to be an environmentalist, especially if it includes pursuing greatest possible efficiency as part of self reliance, because greater efficiency essentially means getting more yet spending and polluting less.
What you say basically seems to come down to that freedom and independence is a priority to environmentalism, and I agree with that.
But I have a feeling that the question of whether we should include environmentalism as something to pursue on Libervis is still open.
There are cases in which this "care for the environment" is a good thing to talk about and promote, as long as it doesn't break the higher priorities. For example, part of the reason why hardware companies strive to make computers more power efficient and consequently brag about being environment friendly is that there is a movement among people which demands that technology they use allows them to reduce their "footprint" on the environment..
Anyway, I'm interested in more opinions about that.
Thank you very much for your input!
democrates | I think free software is on | Fri, 2008-02-08 03:45
I think free software is on the right side of the eco debate in fact.
The number of people who rewrite code is dwarfed by the number of users, so large numbers don't have to upgrade their hardware to run the latest Win or Mac OS and we gain a net reduction in consumption and pollution. If you follow every component in new hardware back through the supply chain to the quarry, oilfield etc, and measure the ecological footprint at every step, the costs of upgrading to a new box just because it uses a few watts less power is a false economy.
I care deeply about the decline of our environment ('our' as in we're in it rather than 'our' as in ownership), mainly for future generations as I expect I'll be gone by the time it gets really bad.
But I think the green agenda can be muddled. Take the total consumption and pollution footprint for resource extraction, manufacturing, shipping, installing and maintaining the power supply over say 50 years for 10,000 homes:
Option 1) 10,000 domestic wind turbines incl foundations/stays, 10,000 deep-cycle lead acid batteries, 10,000 inverters etc etc
Option 2) A wind and hydro station supplying all these homes on a grid
Green is great but economies of scale and the total cost of the disposable mentality seem to get lost in the rush to flaunt eco credentials.
democrates | One of the things I like is | Wed, 2008-02-06 13:15
One of the things I like is that no matter the topic, when reading posts I so frequently see an interesting point of view that had never occurred to me before, or I'll see something expressed or modeled in a way that is new to me. I've been able to enrich the pool of ideas which are at the disposal of my mind as I take the journey of continuous improvement through life. Other times I go on a random rant, just a brain dump of arbitrary irks, it is a cleansing experience which hopefully doesn't bore people too much.
If we're wise enough, every so often we'll take a strategic review of our life including our lifes' work. Once we're happy with the strategic then it is simply a case of implementation. Clearly libervis' leaders have been doing that since last autumn, and now the new look libervis is in the works.
One big opportunity may be that it becomes a place where all kinds of people come to do a periodic strategic review of their enterprise. They take time out from the detail of doing, and engage with a wider community on their strategic framework, and how it fits with their lives. Community Coaching perhaps, like life-coaching, but it's by the community, for the community.
libervisco | The community coaching idea | Wed, 2008-02-06 13:51
The community coaching idea actually fits the description of an incubator.. Where new ideas grow through brainstorming and thinking things through. Strategic review of a particular enterprise would be more specific to what that enterprise is, but being a review it would definitely benefit from new ideas or at least new perspectives on the issue.
Of course, such enterprises would have to be interested in adapting their business to the cause that Libervis stands for.
libervisco | I gotta admit I'm becoming | Wed, 2008-02-06 14:13
I gotta admit I'm becoming rather eager to move on with this. It seems at this point I can only expect a response from the two of you (democrates and tbuitenh) as others don't seem to be active on the site these days. And you already responded.. I'd be satisfied if we could agree if incubation really best describes ideas all of us have in mind, whether we have consensus on that, whether it makes sense to you to establish that as a definition of our method of operation.
Then I would want to proceed with the pre-implementation planning stages, thinking about what is involved in forming and solidifying an entity that is a "Community powered online entrepreneurial incubator with the purpose of promoting socially, ethically and ecologically responsible use and development of technology." -- Essentially, the question is whether that sentence could be used as the exact definition of what Libervis is.
libervisco | After some thinking I would | Wed, 2008-02-06 16:19
After some thinking I would modify that defining sentence to this:
"Libervis (Network) is a community powered online entrepreneurial incubator with the purpose of advancing socially, ethically and ecologically responsible use and development of technology with focus on Freedomware, Free Culture, Environmentalism and Humanism"
Our Freedomware vector goes through Nuxified.org and our alliance with GNU/Linux Matters (which is soon to announce something very significant). Our Free Culture vector is still largely under developed, but could start with bumpatune.com. Environmentalism is something that may follow later on, but whether an environmentalist projects would originate as a fully managed Libervis project or merely a hosted "incubated" project, is yet to be seen. Same mostly goes for humanism, except that there is a DoublePlusHuman.com mini-project which I'm to build.
In other words, the Freedomware and Free Culture are the things we focus on most and will bear results first. The latter two are merely provisions which signal to anyone who may be observing or is interested in working with us that "yes, we are interested in helping environmentalism too", for example. All currently managed projects have been started by me, but the ideas of which have been largely further developed inside of Libervis community. Nuxified.org is a great example.
So basically, my efforts (and those of any first future employees of Libervis as a core entity here) would be spent on two categories of work:
1.) Fully managed Libervis projects like Nuxified.org, BumpATune.com, DoublePlusHuman.com, Freedomware-gamefest.com etc.
2.) Partially managed Libervis-hosted/incubated projects like might be EasyLFS, Passiflora and any others that become interested in this kind of service). This work involves just keeping the domains renewed, web server running and maintaining a clear separation of revenues coming from these projects so that they can be properly distributed per the agreement.
Obviously, most work would be in the first point. Second is, aside from the basic management mentioned, fully up to the project starter and the Libervis community and think-tanks.
Speaking of community, its efforts (motivated by various interests) would be, on Libervis, providing feedback, new ideas, brainstorming and general philosophical, political, economic viewpoints - maintaining a creative discourse process out of which new entrepreneurial ideas would come from (in turn resulting in any of the above two types of projects).
If the community is attracted to any particular of these projects they would be doing what they came to do there in the first place (depending on the nature of the project). For example, on Nuxified.org, asking questions or helping answer those of others about various Freedomware technical issues, blogging about their freedomware interests etc.. Or, on bumpatune.com, voting for favourite free music tracks, discussing them etc.
One thing that I am yet to analyse is whether work involved in the two points above would end up being an overkill, or simply the focus stretched too thin to really make either of these projects really succeed. One answer that comes to that might be a sort of a time management. At any point in time, most focus would be put on a single project until it is brought to a very healthy state from which it could start growing partly on its own, while having other projects as lesser priorities.
A dreamy vision of where this ultimately leads to is Libervis as a brand which would in minds of many be associated with the highly vibrant network of communities, ideas and projects that are making the technology world more responsible and positive thinking. The organization carrying that brand itself would be what you might know today as C|net, for example, but with a twist - it is open and grown in the community, with the a positive vision of the world in mind.
libervisco | Although it may seem I've | Thu, 2008-02-07 19:21
Although it may seem I've already brought this all to a conclusion, I really didn't. I'm still contemplating whether the path I painted in above posts is the exact right one or should I modify something.
So I'll try to squeeze as much from your feedback so far as I can and reply directly.
I think environmentalism is new to the libervis mix.
Do you think that's a good thing? I realize I mostly included it into the picture because of a personal desire to one day live a completely environmentally friendly life AND because I believe this to be one of the crucial building blocks of a world of responsible technology. But I am personally not yet very involved in environmentalism yet, definitely not as deeply as in, for example, Freedomware.
Including it is therefore just a provision for any future activities within Libervis communities or by myself that could relate to or pursue environmentalism. It might attract environmentalists to our think tank if part of our statement includes that we are interested in it even if our immediate focus isn't there. But then again, even with environmentalism included we might not be addressing all possible issues that belong to the "responsible technology world" picture yet it is at odds with our traditional focus on digital whereas environmentalism goes quite a bit further, although my focus would mostly be on "green tech" aspect of it.
I suppose libervis will be most effective if it does things that are needed by those who feel attracted to it for one reason or another. But that's a circle: we come here because libervis fulfills some need. So we should ask ourselves who else we would like to see here.
I tried to ask myself why do I like Libervis. I come up with answers like, being able to express myself, interesting debates and interestingly, a great amount of help and insight regarding existing and potential new projects. So why are you guys here?
I'm thinking, if it turns out that it is open and insightful discussions and help with ideas and projects (like myself and supermike for example) more than the actual topic (digital freedom) then perhaps expanding the topic wouldn't make much of an effect. I mean, if it is just discussions and this "incubating" of ideas that people stick to Libervis for, then even if we start covering something like environmentalism and humanism isn't going to hurt. In fact it would be embraced.
What do you think?
One of the things I like is that no matter the topic, when reading posts I so frequently see an interesting point of view that had never occurred to me before, or I'll see something expressed or modeled in a way that is new to me. I've been able to enrich the pool of ideas which are at the disposal of my mind as I take the journey of continuous improvement through life.
Related to the above, in addition to what you said in the quote, would you say that you keep coming to Libervis.com because it covers "digital freedom" too? Or is it primarily about finding new points of view, new ideas etc.
In other words, what I'm asking here is, are you (and anyone else who may be occasionally coming to Libervis) coming here because of the topic (as officially presented) or because of the discussion (as the process that goes on regardless of what is the topic of the day)?
I hope I made that clear enough. I think your answers will be quite crucial because if it turns out that the two of you, at least, actually don't care so much about the fact this site says "digital freedom", but about the way discussions are going on within it, it pretty much makes the "topic" less relevant and I would be more confident in making it really a full blown "think tank" with the topic being even wider.
Kevin Dean | What is Libervis | Thu, 2008-02-07 19:44
I don't think Libervis needs a "new" goal so much as defining and then clearly working towards one already.
Libervis is not (to me) a site to promote freedom, GNU/Linux, Free Culture or humanism.
Libervis is not (to me) a news site for those things.
Libervis is (to me) a community for people dedicated to exploring the impact of technology on humanity. We discuss Microsoft on Libervis because the Microsoft status-quo affects humanity. We discuss the importance of Free Culture because these things affect humanity.
Many people in the world see computers as "tools" (Really, how often have you seen that mantra repeated in saying why GNU/Linux isn't ready? How many people care ONLY that it "Just Works") and don't see them as catalysts for change (both good and bad). Libervis has always been about moving beyond the "computers" as tools mentality and looking at computers as agents of change to humanity.
Libervis is specifically broad, because somewhere we recognize that by honing in on one specific thing we're closing the door on potential avenues of enrichment or we're ignoring potential vectors of attack. Libervis is the community, not what the community thinks about.
libervisco | I think this was extremely | Thu, 2008-02-07 21:27
I think this was extremely well said.
On one hand the concern was that we're "too general". On the other hand we could actually say in a contrary, we are very specific, it just happens that the specific thing we focus on is an intersection between many things.
We focus on that relation between technology and its effect on humanity and human values. And a lot of topics count in there.
Libervis is the community, not what the community thinks about.
Very nicely said.
I don't think Libervis needs a "new" goal so much as defining and then clearly working towards one already.
True, actually. When looking back to this process, most of the stuff "discovered" is just "rediscovering". Same seems to mostly apply to my own personal process of rediscovering. It's basically stepping back, taking a look and figuring out where exactly are we right now and then solidifying our direction based on that.
Still, I believe this to be the most profound self investigation so far, both for myself and Libervis, and may therefore have a most dramatic effect on how will Libervis.com look like in the end. As currently seen it will be an intersection of all other Libervis Network projects, and a convergence of minds. It already is this to some extent, but that doesn't yet seem very clear until you really participate long enough to have something to judge on.
democrates | What Kevin Said | Fri, 2008-02-08 04:41
What Kevin said. Poetry.
Sure I've got other interests beyond self-development, and beyond tech, but these two are well met here, and more besides. The only topic I've seen moderated for being off-topic is spam.
Many sites that discuss anything and everything do fine financially, but they often face the downside of having genuinely interested parties vastly outnumbered by gadflys. Take Slashdot, it's too laborious to skim through to find quality comments, and offering scores for humour encourages no end of frivolous posts. If the goal is hit count then fine, but if making a difference is important then that level of noise is counter productive.
Personally I like the think-tank idea a lot, it's here to a large extent already. Where else could I go for that? I left Mensa in a dirty big huff because they wouldn't publish my article calling to open a new level of membership with no test required for the other 98% of humanity (their constitution states they were set up to benefit *all* of humanity). I've grown more from libervis in my brief time here than I did from years of that organisations' "member benefits". And I had to pay them! If libervis closed down I'd have to start it up again, it has become indispensable.
When I first posted here I felt quite cagey, it was clear the existing community knew a hell of a lot more than me about the issues of digital freedom, and still do, so I was afraid of being slammed down for getting involved in something I knew relatively little about. The positive atmosphere was a welcome relief, and remains a treat. Even when bullets are spat over some outrage, or people disagree in analysis or prescription, this place is all about what's good and right, it has a kind of spiritual quality for me
tbuitenh | Everyone above has good | Fri, 2008-02-08 09:48
Everyone above has good points. And I don't have enough time to comment on all of them.
I think with the incubator idea, we will have two layers in the libervis network. At the core are sites like libervis.com, nuxified, mobiliberty, bumpatune, etc. Most of the incubated projects are more likely to be in the outer layer: not exactly the same ideals as those of the libervis core sites, but friendly to them. I think the environmentalism belongs in an outer layer site, where by the way I will strongly support it.
libervisco | Well, I think that basically | Sat, 2008-02-09 02:44
Well, I think that basically concludes it then. The think tank idea stays, and as was correctly identified, that's what Libervis in big part already is. It's true what Kevin said, we're not so much putting new goals as much as just solidifying and perhaps to a point redefining existing ones, within the newly provided clearer context of things. It will now be much easier to focus and make big things happen.
I am really happy that Libervis means so much. Kind of "spiritual" though? 
Oh well I think I understand. Right or wrong and everything in between. Real, surreal, unreal, normal and abnormal - we're not afraid to explore it all ("we" being anyone who wishes to join us on that journey). It's no wonder casual human distinctions mean so little here, if I may say so. And out of that depth new insights and new ideas start forming, based on which new projects are born.
Indeed, Taco, I think you identified it right, albeit I'm not sure about the preciseness of the analogy. The way I see it the real core would be Libervis.com alone, as the central think tank and a "deep thinking" forum from which ideas and subsequently potential projects come out. Then the projects started by Libervis Network (fully managed from the start) like Nuxified.org, mobiliberty, bumpatune etc. are the first layer - the strongest one if you will (because it is fully managed and forms the basis upon which we derive the overall value and sustainability of "Libervis").
Then the outer layer are projects which were developed on Libervis.com (or elsewhere in the network if so happens, of course), and are realized through assistance by Libervis Network through a service like offering one year free hosting and domain name. They would basically be temporary members of Libervis Network, and more quickly changing, although that doesn't exclude the possibility of them being permanent members either, or even at some point merged into the inner layer as fully managed Libervis projects.
So in a sense, the core is Libervis.com, it's our reaction chamber. The inner layer is what provides us with the "fuel" so to speak, everything that give Libervis Network further practical and even financial value. This inner level is what, for example, makes us powerful and capable enough to support the outer layer which allows others to realize their ideas thanks to our success in realizing our own.
Thank you.
"Libervis" in this topic refers to not just Libervis.com, but the whole Libervis Network and everything that is currently and in the future considered as part of it.
This question comes after I've been asking myself the same question, researching myself and what I want to be. Interestingly, but not too surprisingly the result is so similar to what Libervis as such is or was intended to be. I could probably say that as much as I helped make Libervis what it is, Libervis helped make me what I am today. This is essentially a tribute to everyone who has been visiting these sites, Libervis.com in particular, and engaging in discussions, brainstorms and creative endeavours with me.
So this said it seems fitting to, after basically answering the question of who I am today and what I want to be, to also tackle the question of what Libervis is and what it should be. You helped make it and consequently me into who I am today.. therefore you get the chance to opine on what it is and where it should be going.
In this post I've outlined my wants. It is in commonalities between these wants in which I hoped to find the answer to the question of what goal should I set the achievement of which would include all of these wants to be pursued. The answer is: Socially, ethically and ecologically responsible technological evolution.
Why? Freedomware and free culture is an example of a socially, ethically and even ecologically responsible use and evolution of technology. My third wish is exactly that. My fourth wish, going to space, is the outcome of that. My personal materialistic wish (the environment friendly futuristic house) is also the outcome of it. Therefore that answer combines the pursuance of all these wishes within itself.
But to make it more precise in general and to the interests seen in these wants it translates to these:
Freedomware.
Free Culture
Humanism
Environmentalism
And this is what I basically end up standing for. Consequently this is what I feel Libervis does or should stand for. And that it does may already be quite obvious to you.
The next question is one I didn't give an answer to yet, but you might have something to say. It's a question of method.
How is Libervis pursuing Freedomware, Free Culture, Humanism and Environmentalism? What is our tool? What is our method? The thing up our sleeve. Words like "discussions", "articles" etc. come to mind, but I'm hoping for something more unique. Maybe, "incubating ideas for entrepreneurial projects that pursue those goals"? That might as well be the best one I can come up with right now.
What do you think?
Life's not read-only. So.. I keep writing.